Current mood:	sleepy
Entry tags:	meta: ffvii

Just Zack
I feel like I'm bursting at the seams trying to organize the thoughts in my brain into some semblance of sane and it's not working. There's just too many different angles that I want to take and too many questions I want to tackle and there's no good way to start. So, instead of trying to organize things, I'm just going to start rambling and hope that I get somewhere.

Is Zack a bit character in the FFVII story?

I get annoyed when I see people belittling Zack's importance as a character in the story of FFVII proper. Too many reviews contain comments about Zack's progress from a "bit character whose only appearance was in a flashback" to "the lead of Crisis Core".

Well, here's the thing: Zack was important in FFVII proper.

At first, it's hard to tell, what with people stating over and over again that the FFVII game is about Cloud and his progress and growth. Only, people seem to forget that the "Cloud" we see at the beginning of the game, and really for over 2/3rds if not more of the game, is not Cloud as he was, but Cloud-who-thinks-he's-Zack. If nothing else, this establishes just how important Zack really was in the story of FFVII.

Yes, much of Cloud's weird obsession with Sephiroth is due to Sephiroth's manipulation and the result of Hojo injecting Jenova cells into him, but a large part of his drive is because Cloud is trying to be Zack on a deeply subconscious level. He's made himself into Zack, so really, what we see was not "Cloud" chasing and fighting and trying and striving, but "Zack" as Cloud remembers him.

Just because we never see much of Zack's looks in FFVII doesn't mean we don't see his character, because that character whom we've been playing for all of disc 1 and the better part of disc 2 (out of a 3 disc game) is Zack. We only start seeing the real Cloud after the mind trip through the lifestream. If that doesn't make one a major character of a game, I don't know what does.

Not only is his importance obvious in the main game, Advent Children Complete also beats it into our heads just how much Zack had been influencing Cloud's behavior. The movie even explicitly made clear that over three years after his death, Cloud still hasn't gotten past the event. Even when he's saved the world many times over, he is still living for Zack's sake. In fact, while he managed to get over Aerith's death by the middle of the movie (as portrayed in his participation with the battle against the Bahamut SIN), it isn't until his ending fight against Sephiroth that Cloud manages to get over Zack's passing.

Of course, by the time of Crisis Core's release, one can pinpoint the exact moment Cloud's mind went from "shy but still trying" to "broken with crazy". That moment? Zack's last breath. This moment unequivocally establishes Zack as a major character in the entire story of FFVII.

Who did Aerith like better?

I totally do not understand how people could think Aerith's emotional attachment to Cloud was greater than her attachment to Zack. How much did Aerith love Zack? Let me count the ways:

1. Aerith wore the pink ribbon Zack bought her for over 5 years after his disappearance off the face of the earth. Same thing with her trademark pink skirt.
   
   
2. Aerith continued writing letters (eighty-nine of them!) to Zack for 4 consecutive years before giving up on letter writing. Even then, in her last letter, she's still waiting.
   
   
3. Aerith sells flowers because Zack told her it's a good idea and continues selling them until she was dragged into Cloud's adventures, 5 years after Zack's disappearance.
   
   
4. Aerith's "date as payment" idea came from Zack, and she still remembers 5 years after he disappeared. (I cannot seem to emphasize enough of how long she's been remembering him.)
   
   
5. One of the first things Aerith reveals to Cloud is that he reminds her of her first boyfriend. Note: "first boyfriend", not "ex".
   
   
6. The list of 23 things Aerith wants from Zack? To spend a little more time with him, x23. (Also doubles as one of the saddest moments of Crisis Core, second only to Zack dying.)
   
   
7. Even during the Golden Saucer dating sequence, Aerith is still seeing the similarities between Cloud and Zack. Yes, she mentions that she wants to know the real Cloud, but that's because she realized everything that had attracted her to Cloud so far was because he reminded her of Zack.
   
   
8. Aerith and Zack banter like parents regarding how much Cloud is a really big child that she's not ready to have. At this point, the canon pairing of Zack x Aerith is pretty much being shoved down our throats, so the naysayers might as well just accept it, goddamnit!

Stop hating on the hetero!

Okay, I understand for a lot of yaoi fangirls, the existence of Aerith and Tifa are two big obstacles standing between Cloud and whatever yaoi shipping of preference (especially Zack - not even his death is this great of an obstacle). But that doesn't mean one can just...ignore the fact that Cloud did in fact have feelings for both girls and that both girls are in love with Cloud, whatever arguable degree it may be (see the previous section).

First, Aerith, for all that I have argued for her being canonically paired with Zack, also loved Cloud. She supported him when he wanted to ditch her, followed him across the better part of the world on his quest, was clumsily playing matchmaker between him and Tifa, and genuinely caring about the shit that he's going through.

Yes, her initial attraction to Cloud is due to how much he reminds her of Zack, but she sees him as his own person. She even acknowledges this in the kind of important detail that is the Golden Saucer dating scene. Yes, the scene is not set in stone, but it's kind of important to remember that she is the default option for a reason, and that reason being her dialogue with Cloud establishes and solidifies past and present relationships. And Cloud, for all that he is icy and aloof for the first part of the game, was still affected by her death. He still has difficulty letting her go, as Advent Children has amply portrayed.

He lets her go in the end, but that's because there's someone else whose kicking his butt for being an emo git. That person is Tifa.

Tifa gets a pretty huge chunk of bashing from fangirls (and fanboys). Between her and Aerith (y'know, the two major female leads?), they probably account for about 90% of shipping rants, with Yuffie picking up whatever slack directed at her for being too perky. But anyway.

Tifa.

People really need to stop hating Tifa. It's been pretty well established that she likes Cloud, gives a damn about what he's going through, and is the only living person who seems to be capable of getting through to him. She even went spelunking in his fucked up psyche to drag him out of the lifestream, so I would say she plays a pretty damn important part in his life!

Also, Tifa is NOT a jealous bitch who treats her love rivals like shit. I think people are forgetting that Tifa actually likes Aerith, even before she died. She and Aerith often team up against Cloud when he's acting stupid. And when Aerith died, Tifa certainly misses her just as much as everyone else, and even acknowledged the importance of Aerith's spiritual presence by the time of Advent Children. In fact, she's the only other person who sees Aerith and realizes how much Aerith had contributed to getting Cloud back into shape.

Furthermore, her words expose Cloud's personality flaw and lay them bare, forcibly making Cloud face his demons and thus getting him to do anything. Lest we forget, she's the one who observed that "Sure [Cloud] might not answer the phone, but [she doesn't] see [Cloud] throwing it away either!" She also calls Cloud out on his self-pitying ways and delivers a very necessary verbal bitch slap to get Cloud out of his funk. She knows Cloud, no matter how little of him she understood when they were children, and she was still willing to put up with his moping. That takes dedication, people, so stop hating on her!

Who's stronger, Zack or Angeal?

Answer: Zack defeats Angeal and all of his clones. Zack also defeats all of Genesis clones and sort of defeats Genesis-as-final-boss. In short, the only one who gave Zack problems was Sephiroth, so it's probably safe to say that Zack is pretty much one of the strongest characters in game.

Who's stronger, Zack or Cloud?

Answer: Cloud defeats Sephiroth, Zack lost to Sephiroth. I think this is self explanatory.

And then I realize this is slightly more complicated because fanboys over think things.

One of the first arguments against Cloud is that his fights with Sephiroth cannot be used as a benchmark because "Sephiroth wasn't taking him seriously". This is a silly argument as this assumes Sephiroth is taking Zack seriously. And in the two confrontations Zack has against Sephiroth (virtual reality and the real one) involved only some fancy schmancy sword play without any actual spells/magic involved, I would hazard the guess that Sephiroth wasn't taking Zack seriously either.

In addition, Sephiroth managed to not only disarm Zack with one hand, he also used the disarm move to throw Zack out of the room and back down the stairs, injuring Zack enough to the point where he can't actually move anymore. This establishes the superiority Sephiroth has over Zack's ability.

Now, even if we assume that Sephiroth is going all out (without using spells/magic for some reason) against Zack, that still doesn't deny the fights with Sephiroth as reasonable benchmarks for Cloud, simply because we do not have numerical values to determine how serious each fight was, regardless of opponent because we're comparing cut scenes instead of game mechanics. The best we can assume, from a statistical standpoint, is to average the highest for Zack and the lowest for Cloud in an attempt to minimize alpha errors. In other words, we assume Zack and Sephiroth were both fighting at optimal level; Cloud was fighting his best, but Sephiroth was not taking him seriously at all. However, this simply means that Cloud at his best can defeat Sephiroth at his worst, while Zack cannot defeat Sephiroth at his best.

However, we must add to the equation that Cloud was pierced through a vital body part (his lung if not his heart) and still managed to physically dominate Sephiroth (beginner's luck be damned); this bumps up Cloud's achievement while Zack, being in optimal condition, does not receive a similar bump.

What this means: Zack at optimal state cannot beat Sephiroth at optimal state while Cloud at suboptimal state can defeat Sephiroth at suboptimal state. Assuming normal curve for their power distribution, this averages Cloud above or equal to Zack's power, statistically. The math here is fuzzy, but such is the limitation of guestimation.

Finally, at this point in time (at Nibelheim), Zack has received 1 dose of SOLDIER enhancement while Cloud received none. This last part bumps up Cloud's power average yet again while bumping down Zack's. This unequivocally places Cloud's physical power above that of Zack's with all else being equal. What this means is that between a normal Cloud and a normal Zack at the same age with the same years of development and training without any psychological trauma, there is a greater likelihood of Cloud physically dominating over Zack.

Now, some might state that Cloud didn't make the SOLDIER recruitment while Zack was a 1st class at age 16. However, people are forgetting that the reason Cloud failed the recruitment is not because he was physically incapable of becoming a SOLDIER, but because he was psychologically invalid for consideration. This just means that Cloud has a lower psychological tolerance than Zack, but seeing as he got the same treatment in the end, the point is moot anyway.

In short, when all else being equal, Cloud is physically superior to Zack. End of story.

Addendum: However, upon further consideration, Cloud is obviously "fwah fwah" over Zack, so all Zack has to do is give Cloud the puppy eyes and Cloud's wrapped around his pinky finger. Easy win. (Note: this only assumes that the battle is between Cloud and Zack, and not a comparison of their performances against similar enemies. Because I get the feeling if Cloud sees Zack hurt, he powers up super fast. After all, just look at how super powered he got after he saw what Sephiroth did to Zack.)

Edit: OMFG, there's over 28 pages of this debate in a single thread. Fanboy wankage breaks my brain.

Who do you like better, Zack or Cloud?

Okay, I admit that I'm a sucker for fucked up characters. Just look at my list of favorite characters (Subaru, Kamui, Seishirou, Fuuma, Watanuki, TRC!Syaoran-aka-Tsubasa, Shiba, etc.), pretty much all of them are crazy or broken or have been broken somewhere along the way. On the other hand, I also have favorite characters who aren't quite as messed up (Kyouya, Tamaki, Roy Mustang, Maes Hughes, Haruna, etc.), but still have some sort of angsty background story and are teetering on the edge of sane.

However, between Zack and Cloud, I'm going to have to go with Zack.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm rather sympathetic to Cloud's plight and really like him as I grow to know him more, but the fact remains that Cloud is an emotionally weak character who requires a shit ton of pushing and prodding before he does anything. And while I enjoy such characters (*coughSubarucough*), I have problems with these type of characters saving the world, mostly because usually they don't. (And if you argue that somehow Subaru is saving the world, I laugh in your general direction. But moving on.)

The thing is, Cloud saving the world is greatly facilitated by Zack. Because Zack is the one who wants to be a hero (Cloud just wanted to impress Tifa), he's the one who wanted to do something to help. Zack is simply the more emotionally stronger person.

Because, you see, Zack has gone through just as much as if not more shit than Cloud. He, too, lost an idol, lost a mentor, had half a decade of his life sucked away into the void, and lost people that he loved. However, Zack also knew his mentor for much longer than Cloud (since being in a coma doesn't count towards knowing a person), knew his idol better than Cloud, and genuinely loved his girlfriend, as opposed to, y'know, being ambivalent and hesitant. So each loss hit him much harder on an emotional level.

Oh, and don't forget that Zack had to personally kill his mentor, unlike Cloud who only had to watch the death.

Yet, through all this crap, Zack still doesn't hesitate to call people on their crap (especially with Angeal and Genesis, boy does he ever call them on it), he's still not afraid to keep living instead of just merely existing, and he still holds onto a positive outlook despite the odds being stacked against him. Yes, he died, but he died with a smile, somehow utterly convinced that the emo kid from Nibelheim is going to be able to carry on the legacy of his mentor. And, apparently, in death trusted his girlfriend's well being to this kid.

I mean, seriously, Zack has enough happy to make the world go round. If he'd survived, they probably would've caught Sephiroth way faster in FFVII proper, or at least be less depressing about the entire thing.

Usually the hot-headed, idiotic optimist spunky hero character annoys me, but considering the shit storm that is the FFVII story, Zack's general lack of emo is greatly appreciated. That's not to say Zack can't emote when it's proper, but he saves his sadness for when it's warranted, instead of being bum fuck crazy or down in the dumps the entire time. A breath of fresh air and all that. That he can also be a dork about it also helps.

(Kind of like how I can like Subaru and his emotionally more upbeat sister Hokuto at the same time. On the other hand, I'm fairly certain Hokuto is bum fuck crazy, too, so that puts a dent in my analogy.)

In short, Zack is the superior character, and not just because his personality is the driving force for the first two discs of the main FFVII game.

Zack x Cloud?

After all that rambling, my point is this: Zack is the reason Cloud lives and not just alive. Cloud promised Zack to remember his teachings and live for both of them, and that is the driving force behind both his new personality in FFVII and his emo depression of Advent Children. Yes, Aerith contributed to it, but as I mentioned earlier, his issue with regards to Zack's death lasts far longer and had a far greater impact on him.

I understand that Cloud and Zack are both shipped with other people (male or female) and that they all have very good canonical reasons to be shipped. However, for me, it's Zack x Cloud all the way, because they have something that they can't establish with other people, and that is the shared misery and experience, both in losing a mentor and being under torture against their will. They both know what it feels like to lose an idol, they both know what it feels like to strive for something that seems far too out of reach, they both try their best to save the world (whatever it may entail), and they both understand what it means to work for your happy ending.

(Admittedly, had Zack actually survived, Cloud wouldn't have needed to learn quite a few of his life lessons, which is kind of paradoxical in that it is precisely because Zack died on Cloud that makes me like this pairing so much. I fail.)

Further, Zack compliments Cloud and vice versa. Zack is outgoing, laid back, optimistic, and generally doesn't over think things. Cloud, on the other hand, is reclusive, up tight, pessimistic, and over think everything to the point of indecisiveness. Although their interactions were limited, we can see how deeply they compliment each other from what we do know. Cloud shows that he is a reminder to Zack as to why he's fighting the good fight, and we've been given ample evidence of Zack being the single largest driving force behind Cloud's will to live.

Furthermore, unlike with Angeal, Zack doesn't serve solely to mentor Cloud. Yes, Zack does use the buster sword in memory of Angeal, but at the same time, he makes his own damn memories and legends and finds his own reason to live. On the other hand, he is Cloud's reason to live and Cloud not only wields Zack's dream and pride, he also wields his enthusiasm for life (or what little of it he could muster post-Zack's death).

Furthermore (getting repetitive here), Cloud also serves to give Zack a reason to be the hero he so desperately wants to be, and in that sense, gives Zack a reason to struggle and strive and work his butt off. Many argue that it is for Aerith's sake that Zack struggles his way to Midgar, but if that were the case, why should he risk life and limb for the dead weight that is Cloud? Why should he give his life for Cloud when he was most likely less than a mile away from seeing Aerith? Cloud wasn't just a "mentee" for Zack, he was Zack's drive to live.

(As an aside: Zack's death is actually a mirror image of Angeal's. Where Angeal forced Zack's hand to essentially assist in suicide, Zack did the exact opposite - actively run into a suicidal defense of Cloud's life. In this sense, Zack showed far more care and connection to his mentee than his mentor to him, and convinces me that Zack's connection to Cloud is more of a two-way street than his connection to Angeal. He had affection for Angeal, yes, but I'm not so sure that affection was returned, and if returned not on as great of a degree, as it was with Cloud.)

And that...concludes this rambling session. @_@